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Forum:Discussions, a new part of the community
Greetings Memory Alpha, An exciting time is upon us! Discovery is the first new Star Trek TV series to premiere during Memory Alpha's existence. I know wiki editors will be busy documenting information once each episode becomes available. But many visitors to Memory Alpha are already looking for information about Discovery, hoping to ask questions and talk about the information that's out there. Once the factual information is available on Memory Alpha, readers will also want to talk about it. To better serve all those needs, we will be bringing the Discussions feature to English and German Memory Alpha later this month. Discussions has been able to capture a newer generation of fans with its mobile-first and app-centered development path. Last year we launched Discussions for English-speaking users in the Star Trek community app (available for Android and iOS), and a small but solid community has formed there. Up to this point, the Discussions site has been associated with the Trek Initiative Wiki project and has had links to Memory Alpha in the navigation, but now we'll be establishing a more direct association between Star Trek Discussions and Memory Alpha. The group of users in Discussions is already overseen by some dedicated moderators, and so no additional work will be required from admins and editors here. However, those of you who want to participate in conversation about Star Trek, talk about news related to Discovery and connect with other fans now have a place to do that right here on FANDOM. In addition to helping gain and retain readers, Discussions is also the place where the next generation of editors will find an entry point into the Memory Alpha community. So even if you're not interested in interacting with them on Discussions posts, you may start seeing them show up on RecentChanges or talk pages. You'll see recent discussions highlighted in the site footer at the bottom of article pages, and there will be a link on the main navigation bar to Discussions as well. The layout is still evolving along with the feature, and FANDOM will continue to build deeper connections between specific article and conversations related to those articles. So we expect users to move back and forth according to their reading interests, getting lost in the details of a character's backstory at the same time that they give their opinion about the character’s most recent adventure. I'll post an update here when Discussions arrives, but let me know if you have any questions in the meantime. -BertH (help forum | blog) 17:59, August 15, 2017 (UTC) :I like how this decision was made unilaterally by Wikia staff with no consultation of the MA community, especially after past discussions where MA strongly pointed out that we were uninterested in having the Discussions module tied directly to MA, and showing up on the MA RecentChanges. We've had no issue with the discussions stuff showing up here and there and linking over to the Trek Initative discussions forum (which always made sense to me to group all of the Star Trek discussions together in one place). :I, personally, am quite disappointed with this approach that's been taken, and I keep getting the feeling that Wikia doesn't care about the community that builds MA, just the data contained within. -- sulfur (talk) 18:53, August 15, 2017 (UTC) ::Indeed. Exactly what I was about to say. PS. We were around when Enterprise was airing, before Wikia (or whatever it is these days) was even a concept, so your whole "first new series" spiel just demonstrates that further. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 19:04, August 15, 2017 (UTC) We absolutely care about the community. Discussions is a community-building feature, an additional way for community members to participate and interact about the topic that they love. Those who don't want to participate don't have to do anything different. Nothing is changing about RecentChanges or other activity feeds on the wiki. Discussions is separate from the wiki in that way and won't be folded into MediaWiki features. -BertH (help forum | blog) 19:08, August 15, 2017 (UTC) ::: Whatever it takes to "look cool", eh? Just like how you forced us to change our "signature look" last month. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 19:12, August 15, 2017 (UTC) ::It honestly baffles me that FANDOM has such trouble understanding that this is an encyclopaedia, not a forum or a fan discussion site. This is why we always decline "bells and whistles" that do not relate to that purpose, why our policies are geared away from general fan conversation. We don't want connections with random fan theories and people yelling about how Discovery isn't "their Star Trek". It's not our purpose. Please stop trying to force the community away from that. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 19:19, August 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::The Discussions link above does not go anywhere of substance. I'd be interested in knowing if these Discussions moderators have ever visited Memory Alpha and are even aware of what we do here and how we do it, and why. Will they be given administrator privileges here? (i.e. without going through the process we use) I respectfully don't see how this change as a whole is beneficial to us over the status quo. 31dot (talk) 22:08, August 15, 2017 (UTC) :::@Michael Warren - There's no misunderstanding that Memory Alpha is an encyclopedia, and there's nothing about this update that changes or impacts that mission. We're certainly not trying to move things away from that. This is an addition to what's available, another way for readers and contributors to interact. Non-encyclopedic conversations have a place in fan culture. Many of you reading this may have thoughts on the evolving nature of Klingon makeup, or the fact that the Discovery will only available on streaming services. Conversations like that are interesting for anyone who likes Star Trek, and they can happen adjunct to the wiki without impinging on it. :::@31dot - The link on the word "Discussions" goes to information about the feature. The link on "Trek Initiative Wiki project" goes to the existing Star Trek Discussions. The two current moderators are both very aware of Memory Alpha and its nature as a user-edited resource. The community there has mainly come from users of the FANDOM app that has all of the Memory Alpha articles and links to articles are key parts of many conversations. Regarding user groups, the "Discussions Moderator" group does bestow permissions within any features that are in use here, and so they will only have rights within the Discussions. Ideally they will build a rapport with at least one interested admin who can help them out by blocking any troublemakers, but FANDOM staff can assist them with that as needed. As I've said, the benefit is community growth and user/reader retention. Going from reader to editor is tough and intimidating. With Discussions, people come for the articles, stay for the conversation and that keeps them coming back. The next generation of Star Trek fans will come to it via Discovery, and the next generation of editors will probably make their first contributions in Discussions. It's looking ahead and preparing for the future, and now is the right time. -BertH (help forum | blog) 00:26, August 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::The first link doesn't do that for me, it goes to a nonexistent page with the text "Article Discussions was not found. What do you want to do?". Maybe something is wrong on my end. 31dot (talk) 01:26, August 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::Would the moderators be willing to introduce themselves to us? I don't recall seeing them participate here before(though I certainly could be mistaken). ::::The talk about the "next generation of editors" makes it sound to me as if the current generation of editors is not doing something right. Are there specific complaints that it is difficult to participate here? ::::I think it would have been helpful to have this discussion much sooner than now, even while this decsion was just being considered. I don't think most of us follow the community central wiki enough to know about things like this being considered. If that wasn't possible, fair enough, but this seems like it is being sprung on us. 31dot (talk) 02:12, August 16, 2017 (UTC) :::::Not to put words in Bert's mouth, but I really don't think he was implying that there's anything that the current editors are doing wrong, just that in any endeavor, there needs to be new blood, both to avoid stagnation and to replace people that lose interest and move on. In that respect, the Discussions feature is just another way to engage people that may turn out to be future contributors. Having said that, though, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of how the typical fan discussions would/could/should fit with the concept and mission of an encyclopedia. Perhaps we take too seriously the conceit of MA being the future repository of a (fictional) past history, with we, the editors, acting as archivists of that history, but we've always treated the information recorded here in a serious manner, no different than, say, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, or to use a more closely-related example, Wikipedia. I don't see fan discussions attached to any Wikipedia articles, nor would I expect to. Just my thoughts; more later, perhaps. -- Renegade54 (talk) 16:37, August 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::Renegade54's thoughts are probably pretty close to mine. I probably sound more negative about this than I actually feel but will admit to some skepticism and concern. I would just wonder as a practical matter whether the irrelevant discussion(as far as the purpose of MA is concerned) can be confined to the Discussion forum and not bleed over to the encyclopedia talk pages. I used to try to manage the Star Trek Answers wiki but I haven't visited there in some time because the quality of the questions was low, there was little if any follow on discussion to a question, many would post off topic questions, and vandals would often post vulgar or otherwise offensive questions. I hope that isn't happening in these Discussions forums. I would also wonder if there is any actual data or evidence that these discussions result in more encyclopedia contributions(as well as more quality contributions), or is this just a hope(even if it might make sense). It may be helpful to have somewhere to steer people who just want to discuss things but I don't want it to take over, either. 31dot (talk) 20:55, August 16, 2017 (UTC) I did not mean to imply that there’s anything wrong with the current editors. Discussions can provide an optimal "pool" to recruit from. The users there already have accounts and an affinity with the community. It's great to think about options for integration and how to best leverage this new type of content, but there's no need to rush to any changes (or even to make changes at all). Discussions is separate enough from the wiki that time can be taken to see how that part of the community evolves and talks about the articles. Certainly articles inform the conversations there in many ways. Editors may even want to try soliciting feedback from users in Discussions. The users there can be considered loyal readers and their perspective may prove enlightening. The "average" reader is probably unlikely to give unsolicited feedback on an article talk page. Clicking "edit" on an extremely well-maintained wiki, even if it's not on an article page, can be very intimidating. The Discussions setting, where the contribution prompt has a more familiar feel and where others are already taking about articles, is a more low-stress place to take your first steps. Moderation is key, as 31dot’s experience with the Answers wiki bears out. The moderators are User:Kili1996 and User:Gpilany by the way. You can see their bios (the global ones from the mobile apps) that show on the profile masthead on all wikis. I have encouraged them to add a local profile here in the near future. Regarding "actual data or evidence that these discussions result in more encyclopedia contributions" — results vary depending on the community and topic of course. Getting people to edit has always been tough, and it doesn't happen automatically. But as I said, this group will be an optimal recruiting pool. In the case of Elder Scrolls Wiki, a user who got his start in Discussions has even become an admin. The best way to get the Discussions users involved in the wiki is for editors to get involved in Discussions. The conversational aspect may not appeal to every editor, but it's there for those who enjoy it. -BertH (help forum | blog) 15:02, August 17, 2017 (UTC) :When there is inconstancy between pages (ie what is considered apocraphal? Do real world fact information belong in episodes and if so what type of information is relevant? (for example does the perception of Nazi weaponry in WWII and the now known reality change relevant parts in say City on the Edge of Forever?). What about all the time travel which seems to have messed with the main Star Trek universe history to the point that where it diverged from our own is up for grabs (it seems Star Trek's WWII was different from ours even before all the post-TOS time travel).--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:49, August 21, 2017 (UTC) ::::What does this have to do with the subject of this discussion, which is the bringing of a discussion forum to MA? 31dot (talk) 12:51, August 21, 2017 (UTC) ::::: An warning to you guys: Wikia has activated the function in the german MA. Against the will of users. --Tribble-Freund (talk) 12:21, August 29, 2017 (UTC) :::::: Very bad news from german MA: Wikia refuses to deactivate their new "Discussions"-App and totally ignores the will of the german community. Be prepared for it, we think you will be next in line... The germans now think about leaving wikia. We will inform you of further developments. --Fizzbin-Junkie 08:12, September 1, 2017 (UTC) It's certainly unfortunate the the German community is considering such a drastic action, considering the change has no impact on how the wiki is run or how the editors operate. Especially given that this is such an exciting moment for the franchise and there will be lots of wiki work ahead. 31dot and Renegade54, your cautious optimism in the above conversation is appreciated. I look forward to seeing how the existing English wiki and Discussions communities start to interact once there's a more direct association. We do believe that having this additional way to participate can only enrich the experience and help grow the whole Star Trek fan community here. -BertH (help forum | blog) 21:14, September 1, 2017 (UTC) :::::::That's probably the most Orwellian message I've yet seen from Wikia. I don't want to speak for this community but I think it's fair to say that you, or if you're just a mouthpiece then your superiors, won't be able to interact with this community in an atmosphere of mutual respect until you truly understand why MA German's assessment of the change differs so much from yours. -- Capricorn (talk) 05:33, September 2, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::On the contrary, we absolutely understand their assessment of the change. It’s frustrating when something happens in a place where you have a deep investment and you don’t feel you have a say. Objections to things on principle are powerful and valid. But in practical terms, there is no change to the mission of the wiki or how it operates from day to day. This is not Orwellian doublespeak, it’s a frank and practical assessment of the change. Individual users can decide whether to take part in Discussions or not, just as they can choose whether or not to upload an avatar or add information about themselves to a profile page. This is new functionality, there for the people who would like to use it. -BertH (help forum | blog) 16:37, September 5, 2017 (UTC) :::::::It definitely seems about high time we left these backstabbing Wikia crooks! --Defiant (talk) 06:18, September 2, 2017 (UTC) After all, there has been no discussion about this "Discussions" feature, as regards whether the MA community would actually like it or not; it's just forced on us! Also, this from an editor who has made absolutely no contributions to the main encyclopedic body of the wiki, and who is clearly so ignorant about Star Trek as to know nothing of ENT. This sort of nonsense has to stop now. Wikia are a bunch of wiki Nazis and we need to escape them asap. --Defiant (talk) 06:25, September 2, 2017 (UTC) As of earlier this morning, the English Discussions are now under the memory-alpha.wikia.com domain and there is a link in the top navigation. Kili1996 and Gpilany will be moderating. For those editors who may want to engage in opinion-based conversations now and then, please join in! As I've said before, for those editors who will remain focused on the wiki, there's nothing that has changed. The Discussions and mobile app users are highly engaged with the articles and are a great source of "reader feedback" if anyone would like to seek that out on a specific topic. And when some users from that part of the community decide to take their first steps into the editing world, I know they will be welcomed and helped along the way. I am looking forward to seeing how things proceed on the wiki and on Discussions as we get our first taste of Discovery in a few weeks. -BertH (help forum | blog) 16:22, September 5, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Actually, I find the placement and introduction of the "Discussions" tab HIGHLY disruptive, especially since there has been NO community consensus to agree to any of this. --Defiant (talk) 16:32, September 5, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::Greetings from Germany. We had the same discussion with exactly the same result. We got the "Discussions" over night without our permission and have now troubles to remove this function, because the german Wikia Staff won't listen to us anymore. I made a last attempt this evening (2330 local time) and if we get no possitiv reply, we'll perhaps start a discussion with unknown result about the development of this so called "Fandom". --Phoenixclaw ~ Doctor Who Wiki - Memory Alpha DE 21:34, September 9, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Aren't these moderators going to make any effort to redirect people asking factual questions to the existing reference desk, or does none of that matter anymore? -- Capricorn (talk) 11:07, September 10, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::Hello from German MA. We just want to inform you about our next steps regarding the Discussion board. We currently work on a statement from MA/de to inform user, that the discussion is not implemented by us and we do not support the Discussion board. Further we will explain, Kilin1996 is not part of our communicty and does not speak and act for us. After this official statement we will not use the board anymore. We also voted against Kilin1996 to be Moderator on the board, and now wait for Wikia to accept our decission. If not, we are willing to open the discussion again to leave wikia and move Memory Alpha to another host. In the current situation noone from German MA wants to accept wikias decission to add the Discussion board to our encyclopedia. However, we would like to ask for your thoughts in this matter and would like to confirm, if you agree with us.--Tobi72 (talk) 12:25, September 10, 2017 (UTC) ::::Capricorn, I too have wondered if the Reference Desk should be refocused or even eliminated if we now have these discussion forums. ::::Tobi72, as I understand it, and I could be wrong- while you and other community members can certainly take a copy of the German MA and go somewhere else, you can't remove the content from these servers. Eventually new admins would be put in place and new community members would take over the site. You can't leave and take the content with you. 31dot (talk) 13:34, September 10, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::News from the german MA: We are going to start a new discussion about leaving Wikia. With the latest reply from our Wikia/FANDOM-Staff, we came to the conclusion that the development of this so called "FANDOM" is no longer suitable for us. They left us no choice and clearly said, that a deactivation (or never activation) of this feature was never an option. Not for us nor you nor any other wiki, which is hostet by Wikia/FANDOM. :::::::::We know about the difficulties, which will arise. This include the possibility of a parallel wiki with new staff and same content; but there was another wiki, which moved to an independend site and went offline in Wikia/FANDOM afterwards. --Phoenixclaw ~ Doctor Who Wiki - Memory Alpha DE 16:33, September 12, 2017 (UTC) Choice While I am more willing to feel out this feature than others, I would be interested to know why over at the Law and Order Wiki(where I am also an administrator) I was given the option to enable Discussions http://lawandorder.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk%3A31dot&diff=101796&oldid=101751 but here we were not. 31dot (talk) 09:46, September 23, 2017 (UTC) :Probably because it was a pre-existing discussion setup (from The Trek Initiative) that needed anchoring with us? Honestly, it hasn't been horribly disruptive, but the approach taken really continues to rankle. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 09:54, September 23, 2017 (UTC) I agree, but some sort of discussion beforehand would have resulted in less bad feelings, I think. 31dot (talk) 10:30, September 23, 2017 (UTC) ::Discussions is slowly being released across the FANDOM network, and often the focus on topics that have a release of some kind coming up. The implementation and approach for a community can vary depending on the specifics of that community, there are many factors. With Star Trek and Memory Alpha, the premiere of Discovery is obviously very high-profile and as DarkHorizon said, there was already an existing subcommunity based in the mobile app, and we expected increased activity and user retention. I understand the frustration around the nature of the conversation beforehand, but hopefully some of that is ameliorated by the fact that moderation was already in place and no new work was required from anyone in the editing community. Contrast with Law & Order which is also getting a new series launch right now, but there is no mobile app (yet) and the traffic is lower than Memory Alpha's. It's not clear how much (or how quickly) a Discussions user base would build, and so participation of people from the editing community is more essential to getting things going. ::With the understanding that this was not going to be optional, how do you suggest the conversation beforehand could have been better started, to result in less bad feelings? To be clear, I ask this in a genuine way, seeking feedback and greater understanding. What would you have done in the same scenario? Thank you. -BertH (help forum | blog) 17:36, September 25, 2017 (UTC) :::I'll be honest here: You came in and said "WE have decided that this is happening" with an undertone of "suck it up". :::Coming in with more of an "hey, Discovery is coming soon, buig launch, first new series in ages (etc etc), we currently have X tied to Y. We're looking at tying X closer to MA moving forward to tie into this launch" followed up by "here's why" (with the reasons you listed in the various posts you've made above, including this most recent) is much less "suck it up" and more "hey, this is what we think would be good for the following reasons" :::The community may not agree with it entirely, but there's much more of a "hey, this is what we aim to do" vs "this is what we just did" attitude, and as I'm sure you know, there's a lot more willingness to listen to the first rather than the second. Nobody likes surprises dropped on them. -- sulfur (talk) 17:46, September 25, 2017 (UTC) ::::Thank you for that feedback. I hope it's clear that I didn't intend to come across with the "suck it up" undertone but I can see how it reads that way. I generally try to avoid big "wall of text" posts but this could have been longer and more well-rounded as you suggested. -BertH (help forum | blog) 17:55, September 25, 2017 (UTC) :::::It was always going to read that way, because the key decisions didn't happen here but at wikia corporate, and what happened here was laying down your conclusions under the veneer of having a discussion. You're showing regret at not having been seen as more convincing, that's all. -- Capricorn (talk) 21:52, September 25, 2017 (UTC)